Help with doing a mandala on silk

[Michelle]

I don't know if this is technically a basic question, but I am just starting to tie dye so I'll post it here. 

I want to do lotus blossom mandalas on silk. Ultimately I'm going to be dying a dance veil (5mm silk habotai, 108" x 45"), but I have silk handkerchiefs to experiment on (8mm silk habotai, 11" x 11"). I'm planning on doing a vinegar soak and, because I want to do black, I'm using Jacquard Green Label as my dye, since  my understanding is that fiber reactive black dyes don't work well on silk. FWIW, Dharma (where I got my supplies) lists tie dye as one of the uses for Jacquard Green Label, but they don't have instructions for using it this way. What I'd like to know is how I can get the cleanest edges (least blending) between colors. I also don't want white space on the finished project. I don't know if Jacquard Green Label can be thickened. I'm planning to run black over the ties so that there will be black lines between the "petals". I suppose my concern isn't so much color blending as wanting somewhat sharp edges between the sections. Any advise?

FWIW, the design I'm currently thinking of will have a blue, golden yellow and red lotus blossom with black lines between the petals (since my costumes are generally blue and gold or red and black with gold accents). I'm intending to make the background a blend of black and golden yellow, which I actually would like to have blend a bit. This actually brings up the point that I may have to do the dyeing in two sections. Different moisture levels between the background and the mandala, for instance. This picture from the gallery is the kind of effect I'd like for the mandala

Here's the gallery link: http://itiedye.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=9&pos=4 (BTW, I love Dancing Barefoot's work.  It's beauuuuutiful!). I wouldn't mind if it ended up very detailed in the middle a and somewhat fuzzier toward the outside like this, I suspect it's unavoidable as you deal with more cloth toward the outside of the pattern. For the background, I'd like something like this:
although I'd like to go with more black. Please note this is someone else's work, I just posted it as an example for this message in case the original is no longer available at some point. The original is at http://cgi.ebay.com/Black-Gold-100-SILK-VEIL-Belly-Dance_W0QQitemZ300136761910QQihZ020QQcategoryZ45243QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem

Sorry about the choppy writing style. I was more concerned with getting all of the relevant information I could think of down, rather than making it scan well. 

[pburch]

Jacquard Green Label actually contains a type of fiber reactive dye, known as Remazol dye. Its concentration is half that of the Jacquard Red Label dye, and it also contains some acid and some other chemicals, as well. Jacquard Red Label is about one-fourth as concentrated as ProChem Liquid Reactive dye, which is another brand of Remazol liquid dye.

The only problem with black fiber reactive dyes on silk is that the Procion blacks are all mixtures of several different dye colors. Premixed dye colors often come out different colors on silk than on cotton, although the single-color dyes generally come out the same hue. The shift is less obvious if you dye your silk using an acid, such as vinegar or citric acid, instead of soda ash. (Cotton must be dyed with soda ash or another high-pH substance, but silk can be dyed with either soda ash or acid, your choice. The acid method requires added heat and works only on protein fibers such as silk.) Fiberartist219 has posted here about having had good results with plain old ordinary Procion type Black MX-CWNA on silk, using citric acid instead of soda ash or vinegar.

The black dye in the Jacquard Green Label dye is Reactive Black 5, which is the most popular of all black fiber reactive dyes in the textile industry worldwide, perhaps because of the fact that it is a single-color black. You can set the dyes in Jacquard Green Label on silk in either of two ways, by steaming or with Jacquard's Permanent Dyeset Concentrate. Be a little careful with the Permanent Dyeset Concentrate, because it contains formadehyde. Although you can dye cotton with Jacquard Red Label dyes (and I have done so repeatedly), you should not use Green Label dyes on cotton because of the acid in the mixture, which interferes with the high pH needed for cotton.

The very best black dye for silk is Lanaset Black, which is a metal complex dye that can be used only on protein fibers (plus nylon). It's a beautiful dye, but the dyes you have now will work fine, so there's no need for you to invest in Lanasets now.

Paula

[Michelle]

Here's my very first tie dye. Didn't turn out at all like I intended, but it's kind of cool. This is an 11" square 8mm silk handkerchief. I think I tried to put too many petals (from center to outer edge) on too small of a piece of material. I did this with the Jacquard Green Label dye. The stuff spread a lot more than I intended so instead of relatively clean divisions between the colors and petal shapes (I used curved lines on the "zig zag"), I got what you see below. The colors were red, golden yellow and royal blue with black lines between the petals, at least that was the the idea.

The silk was damp when I dyed it and the folds were tied moderately tightly. I have another I'm working on with the same design (different colors though) that I'm doing dry and tied tightly, didn't seem to make a difference. So, any ideas on how to get the dye through all the layers without having it spread so much?

[pburch]

Are you setting your Jacquard Green Label dye by steaming, or with the chemical stuff, Jacquard Dyeset Concentrate?

Different options for reducing the flow of the dye include tying the strings even tighter (I like artificial sinew for this), dripping the dye in very slowly, drop by drop, mixing the dye with alginate or SuperClear to thicken it, using an antifusant on the silk first, such as sugar water, salt water, or Jacquard No Flow, or drawing lines to contain the dye via the serti method, using gutta, wax, or fabric paint for the lines. (Metallic fabric paint resist is especially interesting for the latter, and black is very popular, too.) You may need to combine two or more of these methods together.

The Jacquard Dyeset Concentrate might not be compatible with some antifusants. Look at the Jacquard Green Label Dye instructions to see what products they recommend. Note that they point out that steaming gives better colors.

Paula

[Darlene]

Hi Michelle,

I don't want to discourage you, but must say right off the bat that it is extremely ambitious of you to take on this project. I'm only saying that because I get the distinct impression from your questions that you are somewhat a beginner at tie-dye, with these dyes at least and with silk. There is a huge difference in how dye behaves and spreads on silk rather than on the cotton or rayon showed in most instructions. There is also a huge learning curve that comes with practice, practice, practice ...

I'm just going to make a few comments, and you can either lose them or use them as you wish.

To get any real sense of how the final product might look or how the dyes will behave on the actual fabric of the final veil, you will have to :

- use 5 mm as you test fabric. The dyes will behave differently on a thicker 8mm than on 5mm. In fact, they will spread even more on 5mm.

- your test pattern has to be bigger. A square foot of fabric isn't big enough to tie and dye a decent controlled lotus blossom. Unless you plan on putting a tiny lotus in the center of your veil, your test pattern has no relation to making it 45" across. It will be a lot easier to keep the petals distinct on a large lotus than on your small hanky.

- in my experience, you don't necessarily have to thicken the colors for the petals, but you might have to for the black outlines. It takes a very steady hand and I might even suggest an eye-dropper to keep things as clean as possible. One drop of dye goes a very long way on silk.

- don't think that you will get absolutely no white in the bound resist line; this is tie-dye, not painting.

In the end, it might end up looking like this. This is a 6 mm silk belly dance veil, but the results are virtually the same on 5mm. Not my best lotus, but I was looking for something with some black in it as an example.




Anyhow, good luck to you and can't wait to see the results!

[Michelle]

Paula,

• I'm steaming it.
• I forgot to mention that I am already using artificial sinew.
• I'm using an eyedropper to apply my dye, but my sample pieces are small enough that even drop by drop is spreads too much.
• I'd really rather not use painted resist lines for this. I'm trying to stay away from silk painting techniques, rather than tie dye, because the piece I'm working towards is a 45" x 108" dance veil, which would be difficult to stretch for painting (especially since I live in a one bedroom apartment  ).
• I wasn't sure it was OK to use alginate or Superclear with Jacquard Green Label.
• If I use an antifusant, will I be able to get the flow between layers for the tie dye? For lack of a better description, I want to keep the vertical flow (through the layers), but not have quite so much horizontal flow (across each layer). Hope that made sense.

Thanks for your help. 

[Michelle]

Hi Darlene,

Don't worry, you're not discouraging me. I had some idea of what I was letting myself in for when I started this and yes, I am a rank beginner (the hanky below is the FIRST tie dye I've EVER done  ). It just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me to do t-shirts and the like when what I really want are dance veils (except the fact that t-shirts are cheaper to work with than silk). I figure cotton will react completely differently than what I want to work with. Part of the reason I'm using the hankies, aside from the fact that they're inexpensive, is because I am a beginner so I wanted to see how the dyes actually turned out on the silk. FWIW, I've been researching this (mostly on the web, plus Tom and Martine's "Learn How to Tie Dye" DVD set) for 2-3 months now, including trying to find specifics about silk tie dye.

You pretty much confirmed what I said earlier about the fact that I probably need to do a bigger pattern. For now, I think I'll run through my 10 pack of hankies. I'll just stick to two or maybe three petals from center to outside edge. This will be something closer to an approximation of the center of a veil pattern at least. If you figure they're about a quarter of a veil width, then I should be able to get the equivalent of the purple (at least on my monitor it's purple  ) eight pointed star in the center of your pattern. I realize the thicker fabric will make a difference too, but at least I'll get practice folding, tying and trying to control my dye.

Now the questions:

• So how did you do the black on that veil? 
• Also, what are you using to dye in general?
  • type of dye?
  • acid or soda ash? If acid, what type (presumably vinegar or citric acid)?
  • type of thickener?
  • anything else?
• Do you dye damp or dry?

Thank you for your help. 

[Darlene]

I use a combination of dyes, either Jacquard acid dyes or Procion MX from various sources.


-I never use soda ash on silk; either vinegar or citric acid will do.
-If I recall, the black is "Better Black" Procion MX from Dharma; I had a big batch of it at the time. My results with either vinegar or citric acid have been unquestionably black, but I have noticed that there are subtle variations between one lot of black and the next from Dharma's. I know MX dyes aren't recommended for blacks, and I don't use them for every application, but I find that they go deeper into a tight bundle of fabric than acid dyes.
-Thickener? generally none, unless I'm trying to preserve maximum contrast between a very light color and a dark one. If I do, I like alginate but I'm relying on it rarely now. I have a pretty good grip on the lotus blossom at this point.
-A longer mild steam is better than one that is too vigorous; if you see the water boiling, that's too hot for silk. Too much heat will either blow out the intensity of some dyes instead of making them more intense, or the heat will damage very fine silk such as 5 mm and leave you with permanent creases. You can iron them out, yes, but they will come back to haunt you.
-I usually dye mandalas damp.

Of course, I don't even know if any of this is useful to you with the dyes you're using. I only know what works for me. Whatever you do, my biggest recommendation is to relax, experiment and have fun with it. If you're producing this for yourself, you have so much more latitude with the results.

[Michelle]

-I never use soda ash on silk; either vinegar or citric acid will do.

How do you do this? I've seen information where some people basically replace the soda ash soak with a half vinegar/half water soak, then tie and dye using the standard tie dye formulation that's used for cotton (the acid pre-soak instead of soda ash is the only difference in this process, if I remember correctly). The posts on citric acid seem to imply that the users added it to the dye. Is that correct, or am I misinterpreting? If it's correct, how much do you add? If not, how do you use it, as a pre-soak?

-Thickener? generally none, unless I'm trying to preserve maximum contrast between a very light color and a dark one. If I do, I like alginate but I'm relying on it rarely now. I have a pretty good grip on the lotus blossom at this point.

Unfortunately, I don't have so good a grip on it yet. 

-A longer mild steam is better than one that is too vigorous; if you see the water boiling, that's too hot for silk. Too much heat will either blow out the intensity of some dyes instead of making them more intense, or the heat will damage very fine silk such as 5 mm and leave you with permanent creases. You can iron them out, yes, but they will come back to haunt you.

Thanks for the info. I'm already running into the permanent creases thing with the hankies. 

-I usually dye mandalas damp.

Damp with water or with acid solution (this may have been answered above)?

Of course, I don't even know if any of this is useful to you with the dyes you're using. I only know what works for me. Whatever you do, my biggest recommendation is to relax, experiment and have fun with it. If you're producing this for yourself, you have so much more latitude with the results.

At least one of the local stores carries Procion MX dyes if I decide to switch (or there's always Dharma  ). It's for myself, but I can't afford to run through multitudes of veils practicing my tie dye. I'm not a professional dancer, but I am a member of a club that does public performances so I don't want to have a bunch of obvious "ooopsies".

[Darlene]

The acid is used in the pre-soak before you fold, either half and half water/vinegar or about a tsp citric acid per cup of water. Let it soak for a good 20 minutes.

I've tried mixing citric acid directly into the dye solution; it works for some and others will have a strange chemical reaction and dull severely in color.

Don't go out buying MX dyes quite yet; I think this acid soak method might very well work fine for you and the dyes you already have. It's just a hunch, of course, but I'd try it on the hankies.

[fiberartist219]

I use citric acid almost the same ways I use soda ash. Personally, when doing silk, I presoak it in water and acid solution, then I sprinkle on a little bit of the acid crystals before pouring dyes on it. It's the same way I work with soda ash and cotton. I probably use too much, but I'd rather use too much than not enough. I like to tie up my work before I wet it out. I really hate trying to tie things up with gloves on, and there's no way I'm touching the chemicals bare handed if I don't have to. Dyeing on silk that has been wetted out comes up with less seeping in of the dyes. I can't seem to get any kind of a resist on dry silk. I agree that you need to let the silks soak for awhile before you start dyeing them.

I have also used alginate as a thickener. It seemed to do the job quite well for me. As for heating, I use a microwave. Since silks are usually lightweight, I only put them in for a minute or two. Of course, you don't want to do this in a microwave that you'll be eating out of.

If you're only doing silk, you might want to get acid dyes. I use MX just because they're what I have and I work with a variety of fabrics. From what I understand, acid dyes are better for getting good colors on silk. My only experience with them was in college, and we used wool and some really scary type of acid. We had to wear a rubber apron, super thick gloves and a mask to get anywhere near the acid that we were using. I would much rather use citric acid for safety reasons.

If you get a chance, I recommend a book for you: Shibori by Karren Brito. She reviews what types of dyes are best for which fabrics. She works in mostly silk, and her work is quite inspiring. She goes over a few different types of tied resists, but they are different from the kinds in Tom and Martine's videos.

Good luck!

[Michelle]

Don't go out buying MX dyes quite yet; I think this acid soak method might very well work fine for you and the dyes you already have. It's just a hunch, of course, but I'd try it on the hankies.

I'm finding out that the black from the Jacquard Green Label dyes is actually bluish (including on the latest, vinegar soaked hanky).  Ended up with a bunch of green in my yellow sections. Since black was the main reason for using dyes intended for silk this doesn't seem to be the best bet.    Because I'm experimenting, I bought the smallest amounts of dye and I'm running through them pretty quick, even on hankies. I'm thinking I may try something else, probably Lanaset dyes, since that seems to have the best black from what I've read. ProChem has a sample kit for $9.95, so it wouldn't be too expensive to run an experiment or two.

[Michelle]

I use citric acid almost the same ways I use soda ash. Personally, when doing silk, I presoak it in water and acid solution, then I sprinkle on a little bit of the acid crystals before pouring dyes on it. It's the same way I work with soda ash and cotton. I probably use too much, but I'd rather use too much than not enough. I like to tie up my work before I wet it out. I really hate trying to tie things up with gloves on, and there's no way I'm touching the chemicals bare handed if I don't have to. Dyeing on silk that has been wetted out comes up with less seeping in of the dyes. I can't seem to get any kind of a resist on dry silk. I agree that you need to let the silks soak for awhile before you start dyeing them.

When I did the vinegar soak (my 3rd and latest attempt) I wet it down with distilled water to fold, since it's difficult to fold dry, then soaked it in vinegar. I agree about the lack of resist in dry silk, when I tried that the dye just all muddled together into one big dark spot in the middle. Didn't even bother posting that one. Below is the vinegar soak one. I think next time I'll try the slip knot method to tie and only use a single wrap, but really tight (slip knot over the folds, tighten the knot then square knot the sliding end and the stationary end together to keep it from loosening).The double wrap gave me more white than I'd prefer.  There's supposed to be black lines between each of the colors, but it didn't seem to work out that way, other than the black turning green between the yellow and blue in the middle.

If you're only doing silk, you might want to get acid dyes. I use MX just because they're what I have and I work with a variety of fabrics. From what I understand, acid dyes are better for getting good colors on silk.

I'm currently using Jacquard Green Label silk dyes, but I'm not thrilled with the results, particularly with the black. I'm thinking of trying Lanaset dyes instead. I may try MX dyes at some point just because they're cheaper and easier to get ahold of. I wonder if I could do the color dyes, steamset, then re-wet and do the Lanaset black lines or vice-versa doing the black first.

If you get a chance, I recommend a book for you: Shibori by Karren Brito. She reviews what types of dyes are best for which fabrics. She works in mostly silk, and her work is quite inspiring. She goes over a few different types of tied resists, but they are different from the kinds in Tom and Martine's videos.

I'm currently waiting for a couple of Yoshiko Iwamoto Wada Shibori books on interlibrary loan. Once I've gone through those, I may try for the Brito book.

Thanks for your suggestions. 

[pburch]

If you don't want any white at all, I think you'll want to dye your fabric black, discharge it, and then dye, the way Carter Smith does. See if you can get hold of a copy of Kate Broughton's book, Textile Dyeing: The Step-by-Step Guide and Showcase , which shows his methods step-by-step (our local public library has it). His tying is different from what you want to do, but I think you'll like the sequence of dyeing and discharge.

Your tying looks good, but your colors look dim. Are you diluting your dye? Can you dilute it less?

Paula

[Michelle]

If you don't want any white at all, I think you'll want to dye your fabric black, discharge it, and then dye, the way Carter Smith does. See if you can get hold of a copy of Kate Broughton's book, Textile Dyeing: The Step-by-Step Guide and Showcase , which shows his methods step-by-step (our local public library has it). His tying is different from what you want to do, but I think you'll like the sequence of dyeing and discharge.

Actually, at this point I think I want something between the amount of white on this piece and the amount on the previous piece in this thread.

I like the effects I've seen with discharge dyeing, and I'll probably do it at some point. If I understand correctly, it seems best for situations where you want a black background with a somewhat limited area of color. Have you ever tried dyeing just part of a piece black, maybe covering the rest with plastic and tying off or something? Think in terms of the gold part of this piece extending out quite a bit more as an example. What I'm thinking of is tying off a big circle where the mandala would be, tying a plastic bag over the rest of the piece and just dipping the circle in black dye.

I'm guessing there would be some wicking into the fabric I'm trying to protect unless I did more than just tied resist, but that could be discharged too, although I likely wouldn't get pure white so it would affect the subsequent dyeing. Do you have any idea how well various resists and antifusants wash out? My concern is about having a white line in the overdye where the resist didn't come all the way out. I'm probably just getting too complicated and should stick to doing a discharge on a piece that I want to have a black background on. Actually, just leaving the wicking might look cool too. 

Your tying looks good, but your colors look dim. Are you diluting your dye? Can you dilute it less?

I'm not diluting the dye, most of that is just the photo; it's washed out compared to the actual piece. I also think I may not have set the dye well enough on this one, I had to rinse forever to get the excess dye out. The other two pieces weren't nearly this bad. I tried to follow Darlene's comments about doing a longer, milder steam, and I think I either didn't increase the time enough or decreased the temperature too much or both.

This is closer to the real color, at least on my monitor. The blue is darker and a bit more purple than this pic, and the gold and red are just a smidgen lighter than this looks. I don't have a "real" photo editor (like Photoshop) at the moment, I just made do with MS Picture Editor.


Thanks again for your time and help.