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Author Topic: HELP!! Rit dye for a large group tie dye event??  (Read 6048 times)
skeedaddler
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« on: July 01, 2008, 07:32:21 PM »

Taking on a small festival tie dye event which has traditionally been done with cold water Rit dye in plastic pails....  This is usually a mess.  Kids rubber band their shirts and then proceed to dip them in every bucket making muddy nightmares of the colors in short order.  shocked I am attempting to be a bunch more in control by having someone manning the buckets to control the dipping order (light to dark) and also how many colors a kid can use.

I have a bunch of questions but will try to keep it to a few main ones!

1) I guess we use Rit because it's cheap.  I know it's supposed to be used hot but this is not possible in this situation.  We are on a mountain top!  Also, Procion dye says keep away from children!  Is it really lots more expensive to use good dyes?  Are they bad for children with no gloves?  We can get really pretty pastel colors until the colors get muddied up and my shirts have retained color for a long time but I did soak mine in salt water before washing after I got back home from camp.

2) Should I use soda soaks or salt with the Rit dyes??  There's never been anything done to aid in setting the colors in this workshop.

I am open to any ideas!  If good dyes are kid friendly and not prohibitively expensive and I can get them for an educational or governmental (this is a West VA state park event) discount I will be glad to pursue that!

Thanks in advance!
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deb
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« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2008, 02:24:56 AM »

I used to dye stuff with RIT and in fact still have gobs of the stuff taking up space in my house, but now I dye exclusively with the Procion MX dyes. I don't know that the Procion would be any worse around kids than the RIT, to be honest, although I do my best to keep my kids away from the soda ash and any garments that still have it on; in other words, once it's wet, they aren't allowed to touch it with bare hands till it's been rinsed.

Soda soaks are useless with RIT. I never really saw any difference with salt either, although I remember the directions for powdered RIT did suggest adding salt. Paula will probably have more to say about that, along with all the chemistry behind it, which I personally find fascinating. Smiley

I did a tie-dye workshop (a really elementary one! LOL) at a church retreat in a state park in Maryland last Fall and for the dozen or so people who did the workshop I used a dozen or so squirt bottles with only 3 Fall colors: golden yellow, brilliant orange, and bright green. Limiting the colors helped the shirts come out FANTASTIC. Even my then-2-year-old had a blast squirting a couple extra shirts with the leftovers in squirt bottles.

Cost-wise, depending on how many folks you're talking about, it's probably not the prohibitive even if you wouldn't get a discount. (I'm not really conversant with this aspect or purchasing; my church reimbursed me for the dyes, soda ash, pack of gloves from Sam's Club (we used food prep gloves), Saran Wrap, and squirt bottles. We didn't use all the gloves (I forget if it was 50 pairs or 100 in the box), the Saran Wrap was a HUGE box (I use it instead of plastic bags to reduce colors bleeding and pooling in the bag), and the squirt bottles are reusable, so no need to purchase those for next year.

How many people do you have at this thing?  grin
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pburch
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« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2008, 04:42:30 AM »

Rit is not cheap! It costs a LOT more than Procion MX dyes! Beware of false economy here.

One box of Rit all-purpose dye will dye only one pound of fabric to a pale to medium shade (or half a pound if you want bright or dark colors, which most of us do). The box contains mostly salt and some detergent, with just a little dye. You need only 5 grams of Procion MX dye to dye that much cotton fabric to a medium shade, but the Procion MX dye costs only about $5 for 57 grams. You'd have to get twenty-two boxes of Rit dye, for a cost of about $66, to get enough dye to equal one $5 two-ounce jar of Procion MX dye. To get Procion MX dye cheap, order by mail from Grateful Dyes in Colorado, or Dharma Trading Company in California, or PRO Chemical & Dye in Massachussetts, or Jacquard Products in California (the latter only for 8-ounce jars or larger). (See my list of Sources for Dyeing Supplies Around the World for contact info for these and other dye suppliers.) Do not buy jars that contain less than two ounces of dye, because the tiny jars are more expensive per gram. You can order a big tie-dye kit from Dharma or ProChem that will cost far less than you'd have to spend on Rit dye. (See "comparison of dye costs" on the Dye Forum.)

Rit dye is also NOT safer than Procion MX dye! In fact, Rit dye through the 1980s contained dangerous dyes based on benzidine or o-dianisidine. No fiber reactive dyes anywhere are based on these dangerous chemicals. (See Is all-purpose dye safe to use? Is it safer than fiber reactive dye?.) Rit dye does not reveal which direct dyes and acid dyes they include in their formulas now, so you really don't know how far to trust their MSDS pages. In contrast, we know exactly what Procion MX dyes are used by the major dye suppliers, and we know that they are all relatively non-toxic, though it would be stupid to use any dye (besides food coloring) without gloves, and without wearing a face mask or respirator while mixing up the dye powders. If your kids are too young to stay out of dye buckets even when adequately supervised, a safer project would be to dye wool yarn with food coloring (which will not work on cotton).

Of course, Rit dye won't work in cold water, and scalding hot water is far too dangerous to use around children. Procion MX dyes are set with soda ash, instead of heat; soda ash is a mild irritant that you probably already use every week when you wash your clothes. (It's a major ingredient in most laundry powders.) Soda ash presoaks will do NOTHING to make Rit dye more permanent. To dye a multicolored shirt with Rit dye, you either have to hold the shirt partly submerged in nearly-boiling water for half an hour for each color (see How can I tie dye with RIT dye?), which poses obvious dangers of serious burns, or steam each of the shirts after applying the dye, which would take forever if you are doing more than a couple of shirts.

All-purpose dye is just a bad dye all around for tie-dyeing. The cost is high, the method of application dangerous, and the results are ugly. The results are not as bright as you get with fiber reactive dye, and they fade quickly, and they bleed forever in the laundry. To avoid ruining your other clothes, you are supposed to hand-wash Rit-dyed items in cold water, separately. I don't know about you, but my life is too busy for hand-washing. Why not use prettier dyes which are easier and safer to use and cost far less? That's what you get with Procion MX dyes.

Aren't you glad you asked us first? smiley I have gotten so many sad emails from people who tie-dyed with Rit dye in cool water, only to see most of the dye wash out the first time the shirts got wet.

Paula

« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 04:45:05 AM by pburch » Logged

skeedaddler
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« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2008, 10:23:15 AM »

Thanks Paula!  I was so hoping someone with a lot of credibility would answer this in some detail as I copied and pasted your whole response in an email to the person in charge of supplies for this event in hopes she will go for a change this year!  We always set up in a space across from a vendor selling really bright procion dyed things and there we are using COLD water Rit dyes in plastic buckets producing really pastel versions which are pretty until the kids make mud in all the buckets from uncontrolled dipping through all the colors!  This year for a change, I am the boss and I will do what I can to correct some of the main problems.  We'll see how it goes with the dye change!!  Maybe with your very informative and obviously knowledgeable response this lady will agree to try something different!

How would you recommend the addition of soda ash if we are allowed to make this switch?  My helpers dipping the already tied garments in a tub of soda ash water and wringing them out before dye application?

Then after dying these campers are used to untying the items and laying them on the ground in the sun to dry....  This event runs from 2:00 to 6:00 pm with major music events, suppers at their home campsites, and the final evening of music events before packing to go home the next day.  I am thinking we might have the minimal 15 to 30 minutes to wrap in plastic for the dye set.  What then?  Rinse under a running hose and dry in the sun?  I do have access to a washing machine but only one small one.  I don't know how feasible that would be and then making sure all these kids come back and collect their shirts....

What do you think of the wrapping for the short period, rinsing and letting dry??  It's bound to be far superior to the results we got doing the same thing with Rit dye?!  Will a simple cold water rinse be enough to get out the extra dye and soda ash and be safe for the participants to handle, posibly even wear that evening before seeing a washing machine as they quite often do to display their t-shirts they are so proud of???

Seriously, I thank you for your time and help with this and we will most certainly be helping inspire a whole new generation of tie-dyers!  cool

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pburch
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« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2008, 10:33:16 AM »

How would you recommend the addition of soda ash if we are allowed to make this switch? 

Are you providing the shirts? How many? Or are they bringing their own?

It might be easiest to presoak the shirts and then spin them out in the washer (spin without rinsing) and line-dry them, so they have soda ash aleady in them. You can do this several days in advance.

Or, you might want to add soda ash directly to the dyes, and mix up fresh dye every hour. (Mix the dye with water and (optionally) urea the day before, then place in the squirt bottles, add soda ash, and shake.) The dye goes bad within an hour after mixing it with soda ash, so don't premix all of your dye with soda ash.

There are others here who have done this who might have more practical suggestions than I do.

As far as washing out is concerned, I think you should have every child pop his or her freshly dyed shirt into a ziplock bag, seal it, double bag it by putting that one into another ziplock bag, and send them home with a page of printed instructions that say to let it sit overnight and then remove the ties and wash it out the next day, first in cold water and then in hot water. That's what I've done in the past with classroom demonstrations. It seems easier to me than washing out on site, and it ensures the brightest colors. What did you do for this step, Deb?

Paula

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skeedaddler
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« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2008, 10:51:44 AM »

Wow! That was a quick response!  There are t-shirts that folks can buy to dye and I can pretreat these.  They are allowed to bring their own things as well, t-shirts, socks, underwear, sheets (may stop the last two for different reasons  rolleyes) sheets use up a lot of dye.... and these would need to be treated.  Can I add the soda to the dye being used for both treated and untreated shirts?  It might be a pain to try to keep these separate...  Or would it be better to forget the pretreating the shirts for sale and just add the soda to the dye when we have the event?

I thought about sending the shirts home with the kids in bags but part of the experience is undoing the items and ohhhing and ahhhing at them all!  I know this is less than ideal but what is the worst that will happen if we let them sit up to 1/2 hour in plastic, and then undo, rinse with cold water and let dry on the yard in the sun??

Thank you so much!
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deb
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« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2008, 01:49:41 PM »

For our thing we let them set for maybe 3 hours or so and then rinsed them in the order in which they'd been dyed. It was a nice warm day so they'd been setting in the sun in their Saran Wrap. There was something of a water shortage going on, so we rinsed them till they weren't slippery and the water ran mostly clear and let them dry in the sun that was left that day, and I sent them home the next day with instructions to give them an extra separate wash and rinse before putting them in with regular laundry; we didn't have laundry facilities available to us there, and it would've been nearly 2 full days till everyone got home with their still-wrapped shirts, plus they were REALLY excited to see them and wear them. We got pretty good results from this. smiley
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pburch
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« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2008, 02:01:07 PM »

Quote
what is the worst that will happen if we let them sit up to 1/2 hour in plastic, and then undo, rinse with cold water and let dry on the yard in the sun??

How warm will the weather be? Try putting them in a warm place, such as a black plastic garbage bag in the sun (and not directly on the ground). The dyes react much more quickly with the fabric if the shirts are warm, say 100°F instead of 70°F (which is the practical minimum temperature). A solar oven would be ideal!

It's got to be better than all-purpose dye, as you said.

Paula

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steve
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« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2008, 12:00:49 PM »

Couldn't resist:


* no_rit.jpg (5.16 KB, 104x97 - viewed 1972 times.)
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