Synthetic Synthrapol, please.

[zeppenwolf]

    Has anyone come up with an easily obtainable household chemical which can reduce the bleeding from a fresh tie-dye?

   It just seems like there must be one, somehow... Baking soda, hydrogen peroxide, paprika, Gatorade(tm), something.  But I havent seen it mentioned here.

   Thanks.

[pburch]

Synthrapol does not reduce bleeding, so a homemade variant is unlikely to do so, either.

The secret to reducing bleeding is to use fiber reactive dye, use sodium hexametaphosphate to soften your water, use PFD fabric with no starch, fix the dye properly with sodium carbonate (i.e. the household chemical known as washing soda), allow enough time at a warm enough temperature for the reaction to occur, wash once in cool water, and then wash in the hottest water available (140°F) until all of the unattached excess dye has been removed. You're already doing all of that, though, aren't you?

If your dye is old and hydrolyzed, less of it will be able to bond to the fiber, so more washing will be required to get out the unattached dye.

Some people like to use a cationic dye fixative such as Retayne instead of doing the dyeing and washing out properly, but I don't like to, because Retayne will never be as permanent as properly fixed dye, and it contains potentially irritating formaldehyde, and it reduces lightfastness so that the dyes will fade faster in the light.

Paula

[deb]

Is your problem that dye is bleeding onto other garments, or that it's just not "sticking" to the stuff you're dyeing and making washed-out colors?

If it's the second, I have to totally agree with Paula about the water softener! I just got back from picking up some from my local art supply store, which has been kind enough to let me place my own orders for bulk chemicals thru them so I don't have to pay shipping. Before I used it, a LOT of my soda ash was precipitating out in the water, since we have pretty hard water here in our city, which meant that less of the soda ash was chemically available to do its job of raising the pH, and my colors were all nice and muted. At the time I didn't mind, 'cause I kinda liked the effect, but then I got an order for a VIVID rainbow spiral sleep shirt. I got one from another dyer already scoured and PFD and soaked and dried, and WOW, the colors were so bright!!! I never looked back, went and ordered a batch from Dharma (back before I got this deal with the art store ), and big difference since then.

On a slightly related note, I did try Dharma's own "synthrapol" replacement, and I'm not fond of it. Too much dye backwashing onto dyed garments, even actual staining - and of course the stains WILL NOT come out! I've ended up with a couple otherwise lovely garments that I can't market now b/c of dye stains in obvious places. (Like a BEAUTIFUL turquoise ripply tee with tiny but obvious-to-me fuschia specks around the collarbone that will never come out - but that means I get to keep it for myself. *grin*) That's actually when I asked the art store if they'd order me a quart instead of the itty-bitty bottle of Synthrapol they normally sell.

Once I do my washing-out, I have a system set up: I do the dyeing on old towels instead of on grates like the Tom & Martine video, and I wash them first in HOT water. Once they've washed and spun (I'll let them agitate maybe 3-5 minutes and then move the dial to the part where the ash water drains - gets out the worst of the loose dye), I'll re-fill with hot water and add the rinsed-out-in-cold-water garments, with a little extra Synthrapol if necessary. (A little goes a LONG way with that stuff!). I let it wash and rinse and do an extra rinse, and that pretty much does it! Two washes and two rinses, takes some time, but it's worked for me so far! (knock wood so I don't jinx it! LOL)

[zeppenwolf]

    Thanks guys; I'm sorry I introduced the word "bleeding" without being totally clear.

   I mean that when the roughly 24 hours is up, and it's time to "wash" the shirt, I take it ( !  "it" means I do one at a time, mostly ), I take it into the shower and start rinsing.

  I rinse, I twist, I rinse, I twist, et cetera ad infinitum ad nauseum.

   I swear I could spend an entire day in that shower and that color would never stop coming off that shirt.  It might lessen, but it would never stop.  It's like a perpetual motion machine, honestly.  If nothing else, this tie-dye hobby has been great for my upper-arm strength, not to mention giving me a truly absurd degree of personal-hygiene.

    Anyway, I have NOT so far been doing what Paula mentions of washing in HOT water after the initial cool... So I will try that.  Also I have not yet worried about sodium hexawhatever so far; I will address that soon I suppose (I still don't have the brightest of colors, but I have other problems anyhow! )

    What is "PFD" fabric?  My shirts are all cotton, but I thought cotton was cotton...

[deb]

PFD=Prepared For Dyeing. Means no extra finishes like stain or wrinkle resistant stuff, and ready to just take the dye. If I find a shirt at, say, Target and bring it home for dyeing, odds are it has sizing on it at the very least to help it look all nice in the store, but if I want the dye to really stick, I'll have to launder it first. I haven't been really wrapped around the axle about "scouring" my stuff since so much of what I dye is second-hand anyway (plus I'm lazy), but it does make a difference.

As far as the loose dye coming off while rinsing out, I finally decided that if I didn't want my water bill to suffer, I'd just rinse out what I could and then launder out the rest. Honestly, I probably use less water doing a load in Synthrapol with the extra wash cycle than I was using trying to "wash until water runs clear." It never does for me either. 

[pburch]

My washing method:

First, I let everything react longer than necessary. This prevents backstaining. (Synthrapol does not!) If you give the dye lots of time to react, some will react with the fiber, some with the water. You don't want any dye left that is still able to react, because it might react in the wrong place after you start rinsing, and then you'll have permanent color where you don't want it. All you have to do is be patient, and backstaining will no longer happen to you! Fully-hydrolyzed loose dye can temporarily stain fabric, but washing in very hot water will remove that.

Next, I fill my washing machine with cool water and dump everything in, no hand-washing at all. I keep a pair of children's blunt-ended scissors by the washing machine to cut the rubber bands (if any) at this step. I run one cycle. Doesn't matter whether you add Synthrapol to this step, but don't add ordinary high-pH detergent.

After that cycle completes, I turn off the cold water supply to my washing machine (the faucet handle is located conveniently right next to the washing machine). Otherwise my stupid "energy-saver" machine adds cold water to the hot so that I can't get anything hotter than lukewarm. I want 140°F in that washing machine. That's the definition of "hot" water. Cooler temperatures are inadequate (for example, temperatures under 135°F do not kill dust mites). Don't set your water heater over 140°F, though, because the hoses and gaskets might not be able to handle it.

I set the machine to "hot" and wash one cycle, with Synthrapol, or with ordinary laundry detergent if that's all there is round. It comes to a stop at the end, unable to rinse, because this machine can only do cool rinses. That's just as well.

Then I repeat the process, or I set the machine to "soak" and let the stuff soak in hot water for a while before completing the wash and turning back on the cool water so the final rinse can take place.

Soaking in hot water is a lot more efficient. The most efficient way to do the hot water wash, if water is in short supply, is to get a reasonably heat-resistant cheap insulated cooler, put the stuff you've just washed with cool water (to get out the soda ash) into the cooler, then poor boiling water from the stove over it. The cooler will hold in the heat for a long time. Don't worry about removing the good dye; fiber reactive dye forms a permanent covalent chemical bond that cannot be removed even by extensive boiling. (This is true for Remazol fiber reactive dyes too only if you get out all the soda ash first.)

If you're using Synthrapol, don't use a whole lot, as it's just wasteful. You only need a little at a time. See the bottom of my page on Synthrapol for more details.

Absolutely do get the sodium hexametaphosphate. Dharma sells it under the name "Water Softener", ProChem as "Metaphos", and Jacquard Products as "Calgon T". Just don't get liquid water softeners - see "Dyeing with hard water: water softeners, distilled water, and spring water". If your water is hard, add a teaspoon of the water softener to your soda ash presoak, your dye solutions, and even your wash water.

Paula

[zeppenwolf]

So you guys have "washing machines" !?  Ah, that must be nice.  No, my humble little apartment building doesn't have washing machines.

If that seems preposterous, well... When I moved in here, 10 (?) years ago, my rent was $300/month + $30/parking space.  And now it's up to $371/month + $50/parking space.    Of course I don't know where you all live, but here in Hollywood CA, today, you couldn't rent a bathtub for that amount.  I'm not kidding, either. 

Anyway!  Get back on topic, zep.  So... I go to the laundromat each weekend, but I want to get the tie-dyes to a "normal" state at home before tossing them in with other stuff on the weekend.

pburch>  First, I let everything react longer than necessary

Now that really makes sense.  Darn!  I'm so impatient, but I see the chemo-logic of it.  Ok.

pburch> get a reasonably heat-resistant cheap insulated cooler

Ah yes, that's a good one too.  Since, as I've mentioned, I usually do one at a time, this should work great, and the "cooler" doesn't need to be too big.

pburch> Absolutely do get the sodium hexametaphosphate.

After reading your helpful page, (one of many, as we all know!), I think I will instead stick with the "distilled/osmoted" water from the huge machine by the drug store.  That I think will be more convenient; I go there all the time anyhow.

Part of the reason for this thread was that I don't want to be a prisoner to making tiny orders to Dharma, for one or two items.  It's costly, un-immediate, and oh, I don't know, it just kinda spoils the fun.

pburch> If you're using Synthrapol, don't use a whole lot, as it's just wasteful

Yes, a situation which is exarcerbated when trying to wash *one* shirt at a time!  The waste per shirt will be greater; that's just physics or whatever.  I can't really accurately measure out how many micro-liters of Synthrapol I need and get them in the sink without losses...

Ok I think we're done here.  Someone should put these tips on one page though.

deb>if I want the dye to really stick, I'll have to launder it first.

    I wasn't doing THAT either!  Ok, here's what I'm taking away:

1) First, wash the pants right off that shirt before even starting.
2) Use "nice" water to mix dyes and make the soda ash solution...
3) Leave it died for a long time, (probably two days absolute maximum before I go insane)
4) First time rinse will still be in the shower, the legendary zeppenwolf procedure, but then:
5) Super HOT wash & rinse
6) HOT soak in the Dodgers(tm) or Hannah Montana(tm) six-pack cooler...

Have I got it or what? 

"Venti" sized thanks!

[2D4]

Looks like you got it to me.

Thank you for putting a smile on my face this morning....

Jo

[pburch]

Part of the reason for this thread was that I don't want to be a prisoner to making tiny orders to Dharma, for one or two items.  It's costly, un-immediate, and oh, I don't know, it just kinda spoils the fun.

I sure wouldn't place an order just for one thing, since you have the option of the deionized water for now.

I can't really accurately measure out how many micro-liters of Synthrapol I need and get them in the sink without losses...

Do you have some measuring spoons? A quarter of a teaspoon would be just about right for a one-half-pound t-shirt. If you have a gallon jug of synthrapol, you probably want to transfer some to a smaller bottle for ease in measuring. Or, just use a squirt of whatever's handy.

Paula