Howdy From Central WA

[Alley Kat Creations]

Howdy all you Tie Dyers out there.  I have been dyeing since 2008.  My favorite watering hole sold tie dyes and I got the bug.  Had a few lessons from the outgoing artist as well as DVD's.  There is a lot of information out there to tie dye if you want to take the time to look for it.  If you have the money, it is worth the insight to buy a DVD, imo.  I've put some free videos on youtube.  Still trying to figure out the chemistry side of things.  I like the mandala fold.  It is very relaxing and therapeutic to make mandalas.  Carl Jung thought so and I would have to agree.
So go make some mandalas.

[2D4]

Hi Alley Kat,

I'm in WA also....Snohomish area! And actually graduated form Central, years ago!
Tie Dye is definitely alive and well here in WA.
Checked out your website.....Love your unique tie dye patterns.

Hope we cross paths sometime,
Jo

[Releaf]

Nice to meet you, Alley Kat.  Welcome to the forum.

[digitalcanvasimages]

Hi Alley Kat.

I'm also from WA. The Long Beach Peninsula. I would love to get some information from you and the other Washingtonians on how to obtain the chemicals in bulk and other supply sources. Everything seems to come from the east coast, and the shipping is killing me!

[pburch]

I would love to get some information from you and the other Washingtonians on how to obtain the chemicals in bulk and other supply sources. Everything seems to come from the east coast, and the shipping is killing me!

Which chemicals? Buy soda ash from a hardware store or swimming pool supplier, making sure the label says it's at least 97% sodium carbonate. Buy urea from a feed store if you like; the fertilizer grade is cleaner than the feed grade. Mail-order dyes and other chemicals from Dharma Trading Company or Jacquard Products in California, or Grateful Dyes in Colorado. Always far cheaper by the pound than by the ounce.

-Paula

[deb]

I have a local art/craft store order some things for me so I don't have to pay shipping, just retail - they get to charge me retail so it works out for them and they send my order along with their regular one. This works great for Synthrapol, which I haven't been able to source anywhere other than tie-dye supplies (unlike the soda ash and urea) and saves me big=time on shipping.

BTW, Dharma Trading isn't East Coast, which is probably why my own shipping costs were so high when I started out I AM east coast! LOL

[digitalcanvasimages]

Thanks for the tips. Where I'm at, Spa supplies are no cheaper than the soda ash from the art store. I buy Washing Soda from Fred Meyer, and that is pretty economical, but it's in another state, and I have to plan my trips.

I have balked at buying Urea from the Nursery up the street, because I can't see it. They say it's an off-white color. Anyone use Urea from Woodburn Fertilizer? I've heard that Urea should be pure white.

[brixter]

I'm in Pa. and we have local stores called "Agway".....more or less a feed and seed store. I bet most areas have some sort of a variant of these shops, they target farmers mostly. I find they sell not only urea but also soda ash which it appears is used for treatment of water wells. Both products are sold in 50 lb. bags for much less than you can get them from craft supply sources. This fertilizer grade urea is white but there are a few granules of off color impurities mixed in. I've been warned these chemicals are inferior to chemicals such as those you get from Dharma but I've not been able to discover any difference. I've compared dyes made using both types and see no reason to pay the higher price... the resulting dyes look the same. Hopefully you have shops like these near by.

[digitalcanvasimages]

I'm in Pa. and we have local stores called "Agway".....more or less a feed and seed store. I bet most areas have some sort of a variant of these shops, they target farmers mostly. I find they sell not only urea but also soda ash which it appears is used for treatment of water wells. Both products are sold in 50 lb. bags for much less than you can get them from craft supply sources. This fertilizer grade urea is white but there are a few granules of off color impurities mixed in. I've been warned these chemicals are inferior to chemicals such as those you get from Dharma but I've not been able to discover any difference. I've compared dyes made using both types and see no reason to pay the higher price... the resulting dyes look the same. Hopefully you have shops like these near by.

Do you know what the brand name is that Agway carries? There are no Agways in Washington, or Oregon.

[Animal]

First off: Hi everyone, I am Greg, also currently hailing from Central WA state.  I am an analytical chemist by trade for the last 17 years or so, which followed a 7 year stint as a professional tie-dyer and roaming street artist.  Just joined the site last week, I'll post a more detailed introduction later on - but I have to chime in on the agricultural chemical thing...

Soda Ash (sodium carbonate) comes in many grades, but typically, the cheaper grades are only different from USP or ACS grades mainly due to a small presence of hydrates and slightly elevated levels of Calcium and Magnesium (still under 0.03% and 0.005%).  For our purposes this is not going to be a problem.  I typically use Arm and Hammer Washing Soda which is FCC grade Sodium Carbonate, usually available at the discount grocer (Winco) for about $2.50 for the 3.5# box.  I used to get my soda ash at a pool supply place by the 50# sack, but the cost savings was minimal and the hassle was not. 

Urea, however, is somewhere I won't cut corners...  Cheap fertilizer grade urea usually contains a significant amount (more than 0.5%) of biuret, a condensation product of two urea molecules.  My experience has been that biuret binds up with the fiber-reactive moiety in Procion MX dyes, forming a nucleation site that allows precipitation to commence.  If it settled out that wouldn't be a problem, but what usually seems to happen is that the dye would rather clump up with the precipitate as it forms than remain in solution (well, really our dye 'solutions' are more like 'mixtures' or 'suspensions'...).  This isn't as much of a problem if you use squirt bottles, but I use syringes, and any clumps will cause them to start seizing up and sputtering...  One additional problem with urea is that it is hygroscopic, so it can pull moisture out of the air.  When it does so it tends to decompose into ammonia and carbon dioxide over time, and then you wind up with other salts in the mix.  These will affect the pH of the dye mixture and greatly reduce the wetting effect of the urea.  You probably won't see this when you open a nice, new 50# bag of urea fertilizer, but next summer or the one after that, you might have a real mess on your hands if you haven't scrupulously stored it in airtight bags.  I thought I got a great deal when I bought a 25# sack for 6 bucks at the feed store in Stanwood, WA, back in 1989, but eventually it started to cause problems...

I have been pleased with Dharma's urea, which I believe to be ACS grade prills.  I get 5# at a time, and keep it sealed tight...  No biuret problems, and no decomposition in the time it takes me to use it up.

Getting back into dyeing as I am going to be doing a class at a summer camp for foster and at-risk kids this summer, which is what brought me to this site.  It's sure cool to see how everyone is sharing info/tricks/methods these days - back when I was a tour rat in the 80's, folks were a lot more secretive about the arcane lore of tie-dyeing! 

[digitalcanvasimages]

Thank you, Greg. Those are very good insights. I have also started using syringes, and they have enough "seizing" problems without adding to them.

I just dumped my urea in a bucket, and now I'm wishing I had put the plastic bag in the bucket first. I will be taking care of that promptly.

I ordered my first batch of urea from Pro Chemical and Dye. It was pure white. I noticed that Dharma's is not as pretty. Just an observation. I have no complaints about Dharma, though. Their prices are great, and being on the west coast, I save a lot in shipping. I like both sites, but Dharma is more cost-effective for me, and has a better selection of product.

Everyone has been so helpful! Thank you!

[Animal]

I ordered my first batch of urea from Pro Chemical and Dye. It was pure white. I noticed that Dharma's is not as pretty. Just an observation.

This could have changed - I haven't had to order urea for several years - but the last stuff I got from Dharma was (and still is, just checked) pure white, tiny prills.  My experiences with Pro Chem have all been excellent, as well, but I usually only order from them when I need Sabracron (Cibacron F) dyes.

[digitalcanvasimages]

I ordered my first batch of urea from Pro Chemical and Dye. It was pure white. I noticed that Dharma's is not as pretty. Just an observation.

This could have changed - I haven't had to order urea for several years - but the last stuff I got from Dharma was (and still is, just checked) pure white, tiny prills.  My experiences with Pro Chem have all been excellent, as well, but I usually only order from them when I need Sabracron (Cibacron F) dyes.

When I ordered the Pro Chemical and dye urea I only got one pound. It was pure white. when I ordered 5 Lbs of the Dharma urea, there was a noticeable difference. The urea was off-white, and there were a LOT of mis-colored granules. Also, the granules were not as fine as Pro Chemicals. This was all in the last two months. I will still continue to order Dharma's urea, tho. The nursery here wants $32 for a 50 lb bag of urea. That's a lot of money to spend if it's not good quality.

[tiedyejudy]

Just curious here... I stopped using urea several years ago and find no adverse affect.  What does it add that makes it worth using?
Judy

[pburch]

I think it depends on your humidity levels. If your air is dry, then the fabric you've left to react overnight can dry out. Once the moisture is gone, the dye can no longer react, so the reaction time is cut short. Urea acts as a humectant to keep the fabric moist. If you use urea, the fabric may feel like it's dried out, and yet retain enough moisture for the dye-fiber reactions to proceed.

-Paula